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The lack of intimacy between you two is as much her fault-if not mostly or entirely her fault, as it is your fault. You needed intimacy yet, you didn't cheat. Blame shifting is a survival instinct cheaters employ to preserve their sanity when they indulge in madness.

Her reasons for cheating have nothing, NOTHING to do with you. They originate from a deep brokenness that probably resulted from various FOO (Familty Of Origin) and childhood developmental issues that have predisposed her. Her being attractive provides her with much opportunity that she doesn't have the disposition to resist, especially when life stressors are at play.

Basically, when things come into alignment (predisposition, opportunity, life stressors) she will come out of dormancy and cheat. Many of us are married to these ticking time bombs. Some cheaters can go 20 years into a marriage faithfully, then just start cheating their ass off when things come into perfect alignment. Serial cheaters can cheat at various intervals going dormant sometimes for years. And some serial cheaters have been cheating at frequent regular intervals through every relationship and the entire course of a marriage.

Many BS's want to believe it's their fault because it gives them a false sense of control, or the ability to fix something they absolutely don't have the resources, qualifications or authority to fix.

You can't fix this. Only she can fix it, with the help of a damned good therapist (IC).

My observations:

1 - your emotional swings are normal (anger, love, hate, sadness), especially during the first 6-12 months. Eventually the swings are less frequent.

2 - beware feeling too sympathetic to your WW (the white knight syndrome). While you can't control the feeling you can control how you respond (don't).

3 - Just because they didn't meet for sex or text regularly doesn't mean that she wasn't inappropriately bonded to him. His occasional text is just enough to keep their affair alive (but not sexually active).

You need to do what ever it takes (including a polygraph test) to identify the extend of and influence of the long term relationship with the older man.

Why? because his presence (or stand by availability) may have been a wedge between you two. A wedge that prevented or significantly discouraged deep committed intimacy from the day you were married.

4 - given your parents experience with infidelity, they are strong enough to deal with it - as well as to help you.

5 - it is not inconsistent to love your wife - but still divorce from her. Why? because your wife's very deep long term mental/emotional deficiencies result in you being an abused spouse. And it will take her years (if ever) to make herself a safe partner.

6- she was not a victim of a man that had inside information about her marriage. As a beautiful woman, she had her pick of sex partners - but she chose her best friend's husband.

Don't put too much emphasis on his inside knowledge of her marriage as being the reason he reached out to her first. It takes more than that. Based on her prior interactions (smiles, eye contact, tone of voice) with him, he believed that she would be receptive (and not complain to you or his wife).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 1:17 PM, Thursday, December 16th]

If you find you cannot get past this, and it eats at you ongoing, please realize this is entirely normal. I had to divorce my wife after she cheated, serially. Like yours, she was very good looking and I was crazy about her. And, normally, I am forgiving about most things, probably to a fault.

But, there was something about this particular offense that , knowing myself, I was just not going to let go of. It is such a monumental betrayal on so many levels( paternity doubts, exposure to STD, humiliation, undermining confidence etc), I knew I would harbor resentment forever.

If your wife is very attractive( and some reading I did discussed how betrayed folks ,often, overestimate the physical attractiveness of the cheater for a variety of reasons associated with trauma from the betrayal), odds are you are equally attractive ( absent a big wallet, status or power as attraction factors, folks, generally, pair up with, roughly their equals in looks). ( nice run on sentence there).

I was early 40' when I divorced my first wife for cheating, early 50' s with the second wife when she cheated. I think you will have little difficulty finding someone. I was fine in th as t area at an even older age,

Your wife may ( probably in my amateur opinion) have a personality disorder. I would research this. Her background seems right for one, and, as you mention, her behavior is pretty sociopathic.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

I'll let the others help you through the emotional side of things, but I will throw one piece of actionable advice for you.

Go buy a new bed and burn the other. Get rid of it. Don't let her in on the process of getting a new bed, but let her know that you have to get rid of it for your own good and because she's lost the privilege of picking out a new one since she couldn't treat the old one with respect.

I'm writing to add some emphasis to a point that was brought up earlier - taking care of yourself.

One aspect of that, IMO, is attending to your own grief, anger, fear, and shame, all of which tend to come with being betrayed through no fault of the betrayed.

The faster you clear those emotions from your body, the faster you'll know what you want to do. My own way of clearing intense emotions is 1) to take time by myself, with nothing else going on around me, to let the feelings flow and 2) to talk with people and ask for support. That works for most feelings that come up in life, including getting fired from my job at 57 years of age. I needed the help of a good IC to deal with the feelings that came with being betrayed.

IMO, you need to know what you want here. Both D and R are difficult, and it's easier to get through the difficulties if you're heading for a goal that you want. And IMO it's easier to figure out what you want if you clear your emotions.

You can't R unless your W commits to doing her work. The less you're overwhelmed by emotion, the more clearly you'll be able to comprehend her level of commitment.

One person's story may look worse than another's, but I think every one us will say that we responded to our own betrayal as if it was just about as bad as we could stand. It's a good idea not to compare your pain to anyone else's - we all were inundated with pain.

My reco is first to focus on yourself and on figuring out how you'll get yourself out of infidelity and into surviving and thriving. Maybe that means you want to R, maybe it means D. Once you know what you want, then it's time to consider your W.

*****

I know you have to consider your W as you consider R. Bu the question, 'Do I want to R?', is one that you have to answer on your own.

First, do you want R?

If you do, then it's: 'How good a candidate for R is my W?' But if you really want D, you don't have to put any energy into this 2nd Q.

Some suggested reading:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/reconciliation/what-every-wayward-spouse-needs-to-know.asp - if this resonates with you, I suggest printing it off and giving the printout to your H as 'something you found on the web.' My reco: DO NOT tell your H about SI until you're sure he's on board for R.

serjr's threads for newbies
- http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=361740&HL=14993 -

Tactical Primer: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=235051

Boundaries and Consequences 101: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=385631

Setting Healthy Boundaries: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=231851

Before You Say Reconcile: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548

The Simplified 180: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=598080

20/20 Hindsight: What I Wish I'd Done: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=161389

After sleeping on this, I think my own issues were clouding some of the things I wrote. I still believe what she did was heinous and unforgivable. But I’m not you with a new born child. I stayed for a long time and my kids were grown and I had the financial means to walk. The pull of family, and my own stubbornness kept me in the marrige.

She is clearly a damaged person, but one you still seem to love. I know you feel badly for the blowback she is facing from her best friend, other friends, co workers, and of course your anger. But these things are actually healthy in hopefully keeping her from doing this again. She is a serial cheater and without the shame she is experiencing, she probably would go back and do this again

If you want to try to save the marrige you need to set hard boundaries. No travel if possible and if she does she needs to pick up her phone within 10 seconds and FaceTime where and who she is with. Move from the house with her doing all the work. I’m hoping the furniture is gone already.

Same FaceTime requirement even when she is local or at work

Total transparency with every device. Block her old fuck buddy and her AP.

Paternity testing for sure, as well as STD.

And what I think is critical is a complete timeline of anything she might have done you don’t know about with the caveat that she will submit to a poly and everything she writes will be questioned. I know this is like treating her as a criminal, but she should be. She murdered your marrige as well as her best friends. She may not need to be treated this way forever, but at least for the near future.

She does sound remorseful and telling you about the ONS was a good thing, but as the others suggested you both need IC. She needs to figure out why she totall6 abandoned her moral code. It won’t be a quick fix. You will just need someone to talk to.

Give it six months and see how it goes. There is no statute of limitations on divorcing a cheating spouse

i can't express how thankful i am for all of your comments and words of wisdom.

I haven't spoken to anyone about this in 4 months so this is all very therapeutic.

@realityblows you're right... it's so shocking to me that she is this type of person after everything we've been through. I am still very much stunned and shocked that she turned out to be a completely different person then i was lead to believe. I guess my ability to read people is not as good as I thought. Even if her and I don't make it, i still hope she finds a good therapist who can deal with these problems because shes never going to be happy in her life until she addresses these demons.

@robert22205https - that is a good point about them being inappropriately bonded, even if it wasn't an ongoing thing. I have expressed this to her, that this man must be a pretty important / substantial figure in her life to remain in contact over all these years. She says he really isn't, it was just strictly about sex and shes never had any interest in pursuing it further. I also agree that given my parents experience they will probably have some good advice, at least my father. I'm going to try to talk to him about this.

@Linus I know i'll never be able to let go of this either, until the day I die. I'm not a bad looking guy or anything, I know I could find another partner, just after this experience I don't think I want to. Maybe one day.

@Blandy I really want to do that, unfortunately around Christmas I don't have the means to replace it quickly, but will be doing it ASAP. This is good advice, the bed def is triggering. Hell the entire house is.

@sisoon - this is very good advice, in the immediate aftermath I had been working out religiously. My diet wasn't great, I really didnt have much of an appetite, in fact i lost 20 pounds from not being able to eat or sleep. But i have def noticed a difference in my mood regulation when i'm being active and get the blood pumping. Unfortunately it's insanely cold here right now but I can still find ways to be active and healthy. Its easy to put that on the backburner given everything else going on. Thanks!

@waitedwaytoolong I 100% still love her, I just feel like she can't possibly love me back, at least not the way I feel about her, which is crushing. I agree the blowback is actually a good thing, i just hate seeing her in pain. And she hates seeing me in pain too, she is very remorseful for how this has effected me. She instantly went NC with both of these guys, changed her phone number, gave me access to stuff. But it's still hard to find peace of mind with that. Yes it helps, but if she really wants to that's not going to prevent her from cheating again. Given its the holiday season I'm not trying to ruish this decision. I have given it 4 months already, some days I feel hope, other days it feels totally pointless. I'm so up and down its frustrating

again thank you all for your comments, nice community here, i really appreciate all of your sage advice. Every post has lifted my spirits and given me valuable perspectives

I’m so incredibly sorry for all that you are experiencing. Betrayal trauma is not kind to us betrayeds. It does help to understand it a bit more, however. If you haven’t, do some research on the topic. I know it helped me to feel less crazy and all over the place when I knew why I was feeling/behaving the way I was.

You’ve received some good advice. I agree with Bigger that now is the time to "do." I felt like I was such a powerless victim, it was hard to get out of the dark place I was in. When I started taking control of the things I could, it gave me some of that power back. So find you a new place. Get rid of that couch! Listen to some empowering podcasts (I would suggest some non infidelity related) Set some goals for yourself and achieve them. Set some boundaries and expectations with your WW and enforce them. Maybe you’ve been eyeing something you want to buy for yourself, but have made excuses not to. Fucking buy it and say Merry Christmas from your damn self!

If you don’t know whether you want to try for R or D, that’s ok. You’re really not that far out. Likely, the shock hasn’t even worn all the way off yet, and it’s a hot mess when it does. That’s when my anger stage hit and it hit hard! It took almost 2 years before I could say I was ready to really commit to R. Some people stay for a little while and discover that D is the best option for them. I’m a firm believer we all figure out the best choice for us in our own time.

I hope you stick around and continue sharing. Wishing you the best!

Tiro: Your story, like so many others, is heartbreaking. My story is somewhat similar. My ex-wife cheated on me in our third year of marriage. The affair was rug swept thanks to a terrible MC. Six years later I caught her having an affair with the husband of a couple we had become very close to. She was really buddy bubby with the wife while knifing her and me in the back with her ongoing affair. We were trying to have our second child during the affair. She claimed that the OM had a vasectomy so she was safe from him being the biological father. So considerate of her. We had a three-year-old son at the time. Needless to say, the marriage ended the minute I discovered her second affair.

Unlike you, I had no feelings for my ex-WW when I discovered her second known affair. Her first affair and continued subsequent flirty behavior with other men killed it. My only concern was that of my son.

Like you, I had concerns about paternity. I shoved those feelings downward since my son did look a lot like my side of the family when he was little. But as the years passed, doubt crept in. Decades later, with the advent of services like Ancestry and the ease of DNA analysis, I had him submit to a test. Thankfully, he turned out to be my biological son. I hope you experience the same result.

It is never a great time to divorce with children, but at the age of three, he was young enough to not fully grasp what was going on but old enough to co-parent. I was awarded 50% legal and physical custody. Back in those days, it was rare for a father to have such an arrangement. The ex-WW immediately found someone new to marry (she can't be alone). He became a part of my son's life. It wasn't an optimal situation, but it did work out quite well. The new husband is a decent guy, though quite different than me.

Your WW will be in your life for quite some time even if you divorce. But that should not be a reason to stay. There will be family celebrations, weddings, and grandchildren. But, as your son progresses through life, contact between the two of you should lessen considerably.

You WW has serious issues. Your marriage has serious issues. Not being intimate for such a long period of time is extremely problematic. It isn't just the stresses of life. During my ex-WW's affairs, we still had sex on a regular basis. We both worked hard. No way is this an excuse for her affairs but clearly, something is going on in both of your heads to accept such long stretches of celibacy, especially at your ages.

Finally, the rampant infidelity that infected both your families set the stage for her wandering. Of course, it didn't affect you so by no means is it an excuse.

Your marriage is relatively short. I would urge you to kick her to the curb, your feelings be damned, except for the fact you have an infant son. Give yourself all the time you need. Her betrayals were quite brutal. Not only did she wreak havoc on you and your family, but she also destroyed the family of her best friend. Of course, her ONS only whetted her appetite for such shenanigans.

Also, it will be no fun to police her future behavior. You can set up the most stringent transparent requirements, but ultimately you will tire of enforcing them and she will slowly whittle them away. Ultimately, you will have to trust her again. I never trusted my WW but I made a conscious decision not to drive myself crazy wondering and investigating her behavior after her first affair. I almost lost my mind doing just that when she first cheated on me. I waited the second time when the evidence became overwhelming and in my face. Was it the right decision? No, I should have never excused her first affair. But everyone is different and hindsight is 20/20. There are WWs that truly repent and never cheat again, or so I am told on these forums. In reading some of the WWs stories, that seems to be the case for some of them. But, unfortunately, you will never ever truly trust her again, nor can you predict whether you will be able to sufficiently accept her affairs at some point later in time. Ultimately, you will have to swallow that shit sandwich if you stay. Your son will be raised by two households if you leave and you will deal with all the uncertainty that starting over entails.

After giving yourself sufficient time, you will have to make a decision. Aside from her affairs, you are going to have to look closely and honestly at what type of marriage the two of you had. Such long periods of celibacy are a giant red flag. I am sure there are others. She may be gorgeous, but she is extremely damaged. Her beauty may have stunted her emotional growth by being handed everything to her on a platter by men. That happens.

She’s a serial cheater.

What will burn most for you is not knowing the whole truth. She may have mentioned the mid-50s guy because she suspected you may find out if she gave you access to her phone and email.

There may have been many others during your marriage you don’t know about.

She needs a lot of work with an IC to figure out why she’s so damaged.

You will take years to trust her again. Perhaps you never will.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. There will be a lot more pain coming your way. You will not be able to avoid it. Accept it as part of the healing process.

Your wife is not who you think she is; she probably doesn’t even know herself. Having sex at each other’s home? In the marital bed? The AP and her are devoid of any decency. It’s like a "fuck you" to their betrayed spouses. Complete disrespect.

Don’t make any rash decisions. Give yourself time.

[This message edited by Mene at 3:39 AM, Saturday, December 18th]

Bear with me as I am on a phone and just figuring out the quote feature. Your situation really resonates with me as I also felt a deep, committed love for my W prior to Dday. Now, not so much...

I obviously have deep, true, innocent, unshakable love for this woman, hell I still love her even though she did this to me and my son. Where on the other hand I don't see how she could possibly love me. I don't know what is wrong with me.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with you. You are reacting as any, decent, loyal man would. You are operating under thousands of years of evolutionary programming to protect and care for your family. Thankfully, there are other more protective responses programmed into us like disgust and revulsion. Hey are a protective mechanism built into our psyche. Don't be surprised if those begin to surface at some point. Once they do however, they may be a sign that you are past the point of no return. I think they are o e of the four horsemen of relationships.

From reading your post, you seem to be trapped in the idea of what your relation was, in your mind, and not what it actually was or is. This will take time to untangle. The good news is you are in charge of the time and process. You need to give yourself permission to cycle through all of the motions, change your mind, be inconsistent, etc. He'll, you now have a trauma brain and it does some weird shit. I'm just over 4 years out, and my brain is still screwed.

Over the past 4 months since discovery I've had some blow ups and told her we're done, started to arrange splitting assets and custody. She was completely devastated. I've never seen her in so much pain. I'm so confused by what she really wants and what these men truly mean / meant to her

Yes, she is cemetery devastated.... but remember, its not about what she did to you. If she has that capacity for empathy, she probably would not have cheated in the first place. If reminds me of that trope, "I'm not a doctor, I just play one on TV..." you feel in love with the character, and now you met the actor.

I'm not saying she does not have the capacity for growth and change, but from. My half century of experience, few people have the courage and fortitude for it. Usually, they have to hit rock bottom and take those they li ecwith them before they face themselves in any meaningful way.

As for dating again. Yeah, don't give up on that. I'm 54 and have been on many dates. I haven't found anyone special enough to takes a risk with, but I've been social and met many wonderful women. It's not ti.e for the monastic oath just yet. Plus, you are still looking backwards to the life you lost,not forwards to the life you are going to have.

There are some bitter truths about dating however, but as unfair as it is, it is driven by evolutionary psychology, and this just isn't the place to discuss it. Suffice to say, you are just entering your prime, but your WW has left it. She had some success with her AP because it was no strings attached see. He could hit it and quit it. Now that she may be singleif you D, she may find that her CV isn't as appealing: single mom in her 30's with a history of cheating. I mean, would you date her and risk your heart?

I'm not telling g you to R or D, but just pointing some things out, though I think D should be the default option for adultery. You are still early on, and you need to take control of the pace and direction if your narrative going forward. Remember, by cheating, she effectively fired you from the position of provider and protector for her. You owe her nothing going forward, and if she is going to expect anything, she will need to ear every inch. Think she can do it?

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 5:42 PM, Monday, December 20th]

Tiro, a poster, speedbump, moved with her husband to Europe and was so excited about being there. Sometime last year her husband and their new best friend, who lived next door, began showing some signs of playing her. She was so innocent so it took a long time for her to come here and asked what we thought. The lid blew sky high after that. The two of them had been playing mind games with her by screwing around and she was just in the next room. If you can get back to her history I would suggest you read it. It’s going to sound very familiar.

Thumos and Realityblows nailed this. I need to say nothing else

Tiro91,

Please try to find yourself a therapist who has some experience with betrayal so you have someone to talk to. There are also support groups in person and online for betrayed spouses, and likely some that are exclusively for men. Do some googling.

I too had a spouse who brought them into our home. There are many reasons for this, none of them acceptable, mind you. Eroticized rage, the thrill of upping the ante in terms of risky behavior, etc. Also, her reason for having sex with an older man. It could be a father complex. It could just be that she's known him a long time and he's a fit 50 and she doesn't view him as older. .. .but that's all her side of the street.

You need to find a safe, welcoming place to process all of this. Don't try to do it on your own, or you will never get past the trauma.

Good luck.

Our relationship wasn't going great for the past couple years to be honest. In hindsight she started to be distant about a year prior to us having a baby. Nothing alarming but definitely noticeable after the NRE stage passed. Our sex life slowly diminished and prior to having the baby we were being intimate maybe 3 times a month on avg, sometimes more

My observations:

Point 1: Based on the above post, your intimacy went downhill after NRE passed, well before her pregnancy. For sex, she went to the older dude instead, then onto her BF's hubby. Considering she's the product of an affair herself, maybe she unconsciously or consciously merely wanted a semblance of "respectability" with a husband and child born in wedlock, so she married you, a comforting presence from the past and had a baby with you. Maybe she considered that compared to all her LTRs and her on-off older fuck buddy, you prove to be the best father and provider. But she does not sexually desire you - for that she goes to other guys. Now before anyone says I'm speculating or projecting, consider the below post.

@robert22205https - that is a good point about them being inappropriately bonded, even if it wasn't an ongoing thing. I have expressed this to her, that this man must be a pretty important / substantial figure in her life to remain in contact over all these years. She says he really isn't, it was just strictly about sex and she's never had any interest in pursuing it further.

So WW has clearly stated her liaison with the older dude was/is strictly sexual. In other words: Older fuck-buddy meets my sexual needs, hubby meets my lifestyle needs (family, finance, daily chores).

Point 2: Note the pattern on when your WW has sex with the older dude: She goes to the older dude for sex when she is "between" relationships, as you have stated in one of your posts. So they keep the relationship platonic (warm) when she's in an active relationship, and they have sex (hot) when she's on a break. This implies she viewed that her relationship with you was done, at least the sexual part of it was, by the time she went to the older dude, just like she did during breaks in her LTRs. That perfectly fits her pattern with the older dude. When her BF's hubby started pursuing her, she again put the older dude on the back-burner, because now she sees herself in a new "relationship" and off they went, fucking like rabbits at your house and at his. Again, fits the pattern.

So my hypotheses based on the info you have posted are:
- she is not attracted to you sexually, and does not see you as a sexual partner/lover, but as a provider, carer and a friend who gives her the respectability of a marriage and family.
- she is very likely to continue to seek sex outside of your marriage, once the current storm has passed.
- she may regret the hurt that she caused you, but no therapy can make her desire you sexually.

My suggestion: your best option in this case would be to move on and find a woman who desires you emotionally AND sexually. You're in your prime. You may need IC to resolve your one-itis/codependency issue. Your child is still young, he will turn out fine provided both of you coparent responsibly.

The bottom line that explains everything is that your wife doesn’t think sex is a big deal.

Spaceghost is a great example of this:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/552588/thought-we-had-a-good-marriage/

His wife gave him an expensive present with a card saying how much she loved him during her affair.

[This message edited by Michigan at 4:19 PM, Monday, December 20th]

Some hard truth that a lot of Men can't accept:

You cannot negotiate love.

You cannot negotiate passion.

You cannot negotiate desire.

You cannot negotiate lust.

There is not enough "doing chores", being a great provider, being kind, being supportive, buying gifts, being a dad, or anything else...to fix all of the above. She either wants to F you because you push the magic buttons that make her tingle or not. It's not something you can buy or negotiate with her.

If she shows you that she isn't sexually attracted to you...believe her. You can't bargain your way into a good marriage or good sex life. It just doesn't work.

She clearly showed you that...

You don't want to believe what I wrote above...but it is true, as hard as it is to accept.

There are ways to fix some of that but most don't last long term as the type of person she is, she will lose interest with a safe partner and move on, regardless.

Believe who she showed herself to be and plan your life based on that truth.